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Topic: Rudders, ... the straight poop< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
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Posted: Nov. 04 2007,04:34

I'm thinking of getting a rudder for my Trident but before I do I'd like some input from you guys on exactly what a rudder will do to enhance performance.

In particular ... will it really improve tracking in the wind. I've only had the Trident out 3 times and each time in strong very strong winds. The weather-cocking is nowhere near as bad as the Mojo but it's still there ... as you all know, I laugh in the face of weather but would like even more of an edge.

What will it do for me if I go ahead with my DIY sail for the Trident?

The same question applies to current .. will it help?

Humbly submitted, Me.

Never get out of the boat.
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Capn Jimbo Offline
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Posted: Nov. 04 2007,05:11

Learn How to Paddle - Buy a Disco - or, gulp, Rudderize!

Years ago I was anti-rudder, considering it a device designed to inhibit paddling skills, slow you down and cause problems when they fail or jam.  These remain largely true, as many paddlers become rudder dependent.

We fail to learn and use the such techniques as shifting weight, leaning to the lee, shortening the windward paddle, using a lee side sweep, end of stroke adjustment, etc.  Most new paddlers are never taught how to paddle effectively, and they don't.  Most courses can be held without a rudder.

Then I discovered a few of my kayaks had WAY too much weather helm and really did require an occasional use of the rudder.  Occasional.   To wit: my Skua and Seda Revenge: for these two especially I found the rudder useful in windy passages and inlets.

When forced to.

Then I was blessed by Neptune with the Disco - a design that needs no stinkeen rudder!  What a marvelous design - tracks true, drifts true, but turns when ya wanna.  However I do realize that some kayakers persist in purchasing lesser designs - such as the above - for which a rudder might be considered.

Yes, it will help you track in the wind.  And currents.  And is particularly useful for some long controlled drifts down the mangroves or flats.  And may help - but not nearly as much as a centerboard - for sailing.

So sure.  Buy the dang thing, you'll like it.  And start savin yer money for a Disco...


:capn:


Edited by Capn Jimbo on Nov. 04 2007,05:55

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Posted: Nov. 04 2007,08:58

mon capitan, you may be correct about the paddling technique being more important. This is why I posed the question in the first place. Jeff was kind enough to extend his offer of a free paddling lesson or two to me whenever I have time and I will take him up on that offer.

I thank you for your constructive input on the rudder issue. That being said ... not everyone is, uh how should I put this , diminutive? The Disco is for little people and that only covers straight paddling. As far as a fishing machine, if I was to use Chess as a metaphor, Disco = Pawn, Trident = Rook. A tower of fishing power only dreamt of in some circles. Or a musical metaphor, Disco = Disco, Trident = Rock and Roll. You do the Hustle, I'm gonna Mosh baby!

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Posted: Nov. 05 2007,17:23

Just kiddin bout the Disco - for big guys - and I do definitely ascede to rudderization, but premised on the notions that (a) one indeed learns and actively uses the paddling techniques that will maximize intended tracking, (b) uses the rudder only intermittently when one's kayak design, wind, currents and conditions force the issue.

When all else fails...


:capn:


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Posted: Nov. 05 2007,21:06

if you keep this up I may just bring back the Mojo ... with a pedal drive! .. lol

But one further question ... do those rudders have a mechanism to deploy and retract while you're in the boat, on the water? I've never really seen one in action.
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Capn Jimbo Offline
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Posted: Nov. 06 2007,04:42

There are a very few kayaks (but esp surfskis) that sport a full time rudder.  Most use a retractible rudder which is operated with a line reachable from the cockpit - about all you have to do is make sure the rudder is aligned to run straight, then retract.  

Most rudders provided for plastic SOT's are pretty darn cheesy.  Some use cheep plastic pedals that slide forward and back (eg right foot fwd, left foot back) to turn the rudder.  This is the worst possible arrangement as it leaves no provision to brace your feet (if you push/brace with either foot the kayak turns!).  And they are not cheap.

Good glass yaks and surfskis come with braceable foot pedal rests, only the top half is hinged for turning purposes.  These "toe controls" are sturdy and reliable, very important.  Sorry to say your Trident will not come with these.

Last a very few rudders are made based on NACA foils which provide considerable lift, delayed stalling - more speed and much better turning.

But you get what you get.  The plastic SOT manufacturers still don't get it - it's all about cheap gimmickry to get the #### thing out the door.  Theres a couple aftermarket rudders that aren't bad, but aren't cheap either....


:capn:


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Kayak Jeff Offline
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Posted: Nov. 06 2007,08:00

Hey Fishhead,
The rudder that comes on the Trident is a slider type footbrace, you do have the scallops in the footwells for bracing for your forward stroke so it is very similar to a toe controlled rudder system.
A problem with the common SOT rudder is that it relies on drag to turn the stern of the boat rather than lift such as the foil rudders that the Capt is referring too.
There is a huge advantage to having a rudder when polling in skinny water. You don’t have to switch polling from side to side thus reducing noise on a sneaky approach.  The rudders are flip over rudders and are very easy to install and would give you a good reason for putting in a 6” screw hatch on the stern deck.
You can also try paddling the boat with an adjusted trim. You can adjust the boats trim by loading the stern heavy when going down or cross wind and load the bow heavy when going into the wind, another reason for installing a stern hatch.

Kayak Jeff
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Posted: Nov. 06 2007,13:44

thanx Jimbo and Jeff, most interesting.

I can see how the Trident would lend itself to a toe control method even with the standard rudder. The footwells are plenty deep and my feet are longfellows.

Here's a couple more questions, if you don't mind ...

Is it possible to use or convert a NACA foil rudder on the boat? If I'm going to go ahead with a rudder it might as well be the best I can get.

Also, what would happen to performance and tracking if one were to install a dual skeg right around the rear scuppers on a Trident? I'm picturing something like they use on the short surf boards so popular with the kids today donchyaknow? and where is the nearest patent office?

btw Jeff ... the capn' is right, I should take advantage of your expertise. It's just such a difficult choice ... go fishing or go see Jeff ...lol. But I will. I'll check your site for the schedule.

And the performance on the Trident is a vast improvement over the Mojo, I'm talking about getting an edge on [I]heavy winds[I].

Never get out of the boat.
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Capn Jimbo Offline
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Posted: Nov. 06 2007,14:19

Fish you are absolutely the perfect guy to convert the OK's Trident rudder to an NACA foil - and hoping it is aluminum.  I see no reason why ya couldn't bondo the flat plate into a "sweet" (patent pending, Kayak Jeff) NACA foil.  Personally, I'd forget about skegs, which really need to be retractable and are really for edge turning designs (not the Trident).

See me for details, but about a half inch thick bout a third of the way aft oughta do it...


:capn:


Edited by Capn Jimbo on Nov. 06 2007,14:20

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krash Offline
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Posted: Nov. 06 2007,14:19

Quote (Kayak Jeff @ Nov. 06 2007,11:00)
There is a huge advantage to having a rudder when polling in skinny water. You don’t have to switch polling from side to side thus reducing noise on a sneaky approach.  

Kayak Jeff

I guess I have to ask why the need to switch sides when poling.

I pole a flats skiff often, and seldom switch sides with the pole, except maybe after drifting or fighting a fish and tyring to re-orient the boats initial direction or to stake off the boat and cast. I always use the push pole to my right side.

FH, maybe someone with a Trident with a Rudder will et you paddle theirs before making a major purchase and install.


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